I’m sure I’ll get a ton of angry people posting, but do you think that there were Germans who said “You know, I really can’t support these POW camps for Jews, and I don’t like war, but I support the troops.”
I don’t want war, and I don’t support the troops. I have compassion for them, as I would have compassion for anyone in a really bad situation, but support? Not on my life. They shouldn’t be where they are. They shouldn’t be invading a sovereign country. They should not be following what I view to be illegal orders from their supposed superiors.
I’m not going to be calling them “baby killers,” or any other rude or stupid thing, nor will I hate them when (if) they come back. But I think what they and our Country is doing is immoral, wrong, illegal. I won’t pretend to be ‘ok’ with it by ‘supporting’ them whatever the fuck that means.
BRING OUR SOLDIERS HOME
But that’s why I never thought about joining a military, I suppose.
I’m staying right here.
Just out of curiosity, and not to offend, but why are you comparing today’s situation with that of the Germans in WWII?
Yeah, I’ve never been real clear on what “supporting the troops” means. I just can’t picture them sitting around at the camp demoralized because people are marching on Washington against the war. And if that were true, maybe they’d stand up to their orders, wouldn’t that be cool? I mean I don’t want them to die. But the easiest way to avoid that is for them not to be there… And okay there are particular people who I know who are already over there who I am “praying for” (in my atheist kind of way).
But really, what do they mean “support the troops”? As far as I can tell, it means, present a unified front in support of the commander in chief’s decisions whatever they may be. Which I can’t do.
I’m not using it as an analogy per se (USA <> Germany 1933, though I think it’s getting closer every day), more of a shock to force a different perspective on the “I don’t want war, but I support the troops.” statement, and how it is a fallacy.
i.e.
I think this war is wrong, I think this war is invalid
but
I support the agents of this ‘wrong’ war.
If people mean, “I have compassion for the agents,” fine. So do I, but “support?” what does that mean? It’s a vague bullshit soundbyte, just like “united we stand.” Ugh. Disgusting.
p.s. Don’t worry about offending, thanks for the challenge and question. It’s the only way to test my beliefs and ideals.
I think when people say that they’re against the war, they get accused of not supporting our troops, so they respond using the same words … but I think “support” is the wrong word for what is being implied.
By being against this war, it doesn’t mean that I resent the military, I don’t hate the people who serve in it, or I don’t have a lack of regard for what they do in protecting/defending the country and the freedoms here. But neither does the fact I appreciate them being there in general mean that because they’re in the Middle East I am ok with their being there.
Usually whenever someone says that being against the war means I’m against our troops I point out that my stance is the one that will keep them from the line of danger, being pro-war seems more anti-troop to me, eh?
Ok, I understand what you are saying. Two questions then:
1. Do you think it’s possible for someone to not support the war but support the *plight* of the soldier (i.e. being somewhere that they don’t want to be, having to follow orders they might not want to follow)? Do you then think that could be what they mean when they say, “I support our troops.”?
2. Why do you think the USA is getting closer to Germany 1933 every day?
1. It could be, but then “support” is a really bad word, since support means “uphold as valid or right,” “to argue for or vote for,”(as well as provide financial support, which unfortunately means I also support them through taxes **spits on ground**).
It’s a messy vauge word, which is why I have distaste for it.
2. I think that lies outside the scope of this post, It’s an interesting topic, since I about half-believe it. If I truly believed it, I’d already be writing you from a different country, but the situations that lead me there are
The Patriot Act
“united we stand”
The invasion of a soveriegn nation without support from any world governing body or group
John Ashcroft’s published plans for Patriot Act II
Looming repeal of the Freedom of Information Act
FBI monitoring of bookstores/libraries
Populace being “OK” with the current administration (scares the sh*t out of me)
I’m not packing my bags just yet, but I definitely am formulating escape plans.
I wasn’t sure if your post, showing up after mine, was a reaction or a coincidence. I am in a fragile state today and not up to aggressiveness or hostility, which is why I asked that people not start any wars of their own in my journal. But I did leave comments enabled; I always do. I’m not a regime which utilizes censorship. I try not to, anyway.
It’s probably pretty obvious, if you look at what I’ve said, that I disagree with at least some of your ideas. It makes me sad that there’s such a wide gulf between us. Not saying I’m right, or that you are, or that anyone is. It’s just confusing and disheartening that there are so many opinions. I wish I knew the correct path to take.
And that’s all that I’d like to ask of anybody. If what you say is from your heart, then I have no reason to be angry at you personally. And I’m not. That’s about as big and fierce a post I can make.
No wars in journals or countries wanted here. Your post did remind me of my distaste of the word “Support” and how it is used by people who say
(1) they appose this war on moral/legal/political grounds
(2) they “support” the troops
Which as I meant to state better, seems to be a paradox to me.
Those who feel this action is necessary who support the troops is logically vald (though I do respectfully disagree with that view).
As the post WWII trials have taught us, soldiers are responsible for the legality of the orders they follow. If the orders are illegal (as I believe our invasion is), the must not follow them. So I feel compassion for these poor souls are caught between a rock and a hard place. If I were in that position I have no idea what I would do.
But I in no way at all support them (meaning endorse, advocate, escuse, etc.). Quite the contrary. I think each is taking criminal action.
Also, please don’t take any of this as animosity towards you (!!) – That’s not who I am, I love and have compassion for everyone. I likely disagree with you on this specific topic, but I have no rightous ownership of these ideas. After all, I could be full of shit. I don’t _think_ that I am, I have confidence in my skeptical abilities, but new info is always waiting around the corner to change perspectives.
If you’ve read my journal – and I’m not assuming anyone does. 😉 – then you know my opinion.
I’m not sure if I *care* about the soldiers over there; after all, they weren’t drafted. Anyone in the military today believes in the concept of “military” – and has taken an oath to obey their Commander in Chief, represented in small by all the intervening officers. If they disagree with those orders, they have to decide if those orders are ILLEGAL, or merely “whoops, I shouldn’t have taken this job” orders. If case #2 holds, no sympathy – they’re over there of their own free will, they knew the risks when they entered the profession.
(and frankly, if any of the officers in the military don’t believe their orders are illegal, that makes them willing accomplices to war crimes.)
I don’t want *anyone* killed in conflict. Nope, not at all. I wish they weren’t over there.
“Support”?
No. Cuz in a war with Iraq, who is going to die most? (Except at the hands of ourselves, a la Persian Gulf War 1.)
I *am* actively attempting to find an escape route. Having no luck, since the rest of the world has standards, and Americans fall way beneath them.
Very well said.
I think the fine point is that I don’t hate the troops, I just find their job to be distasteful (or in this case, portions of it).
It’s the same concept for why, under the current conditions present, I would not want to be a cop, either… both jobs would require me to do things I consider to be immoral and counterproductive.
Thank you for saying what I did not have the courage to say myself. I support them in so far as I don’t want them to suffer or die, but I don’t support what they’re doing. Somebody in the military ought to have enough courage to disobey this corrupt government.
Luckily, my job skills get me to pass all the immigration tests I’ve taken.
-=C
Add to that the 5-4 decision to uphold the three strikes law for non-violent offenders, if you want to talk about the slippery slope on the way to the depths of authortarianism.
~j
And our prison industry
war on drugs
The coming war on sexuality
eroding the separation of church/state
I have a bit different perspective. I think the phrase stems from our History, and how vets have been treated in the past, like the Vietnam vets. So there is an implied “Support our troops, for when they return broken spirited, hearted, they will need you.” Well that might be a bit melodramatic, but it’s my thought.
Growing up around the military, I can say many of them may not agree with what thier commanders tell them to do. But a soldier is not supposed to question orders. That is how the military machine functions. If they questioned, orders would not be followed, and chaoes would ensue. So while a soldier signs up 2 years prior to this action, may not agree with the current action, there are other actions which he/she must serve, unquestioningly. It is why so many vets have problems when they return from war, because they have done things their human conscience would normally not allow them to do, but that they had to do out of duty. It is a very tough and awful thing to kill another human being. I for one, would not criticize a soldier for doing their duty. They are not allowed to pick and choose their causes, unlike us, free citizens.
Somebody in the military ought to have enough courage to disobey this corrupt government.
What you are asking is close to asking someone to maim themselves. Or worse. The reason I say this is that a “person” on active military duty is not really a “somebody.” Once on active duty, your legal status as a human being and a citizen is highly abridged. Active duty personnel retain the right to vote. However, military personnel signed away most of their rights upon induction. Only the bill of rights *can* be applied to a G.I. (Government Issue). And this is questionable. Your ability to protect yourself with any one of the first ten amendments is arbitrary, as the military sees fit. Legal wrangling can help some. Once a citizen joins the military, he or she belongs to the military. You are an objectified possession.
Asking a soldier, marine, sailor, or airman to practice civil disobedience is a tall request. Such behavior is nearly lethal. The punishment, while execution is not going to happen*, is severe, and crushing. It has to be to maintain the discipline and obedience of others. Crimes and punishments are not proportionate, and they are not proportionate by design.
Furthermore, it is psychologically difficult to disobey orders. I can’t tell you a specific reason for this or when this happened. But after basic training, the whole synthetic experience of basic training results in a psychological resistance. You can disagree and disapprove and even voice your objections. You can want to disobey orders. I found that part of my mind utterly unaffected (And I know that the military does not want to affect independence of thought). But physically disobeying an order requires more force of will than most people would expect.
It is also a standing order that military personnel are obligated to disobey unlawful orders. But this is not as straight forward as it looks. Situations are almost always ambiguous. The whole disobey unlawful orders order is usually a trap, depends on subjective interpretations, and most often is a confusing lose-lose situation.
*Some forms of disobedience do call for execution on the spot. Running from battle requires that your sergeant, or anyone of higher rank, shoot you immediately. And it will be done. And it would not be murder, legally. Since you are Government Issue, not a full citizen or human being. This is not something that is discussed, but it is a standing order. I doubt I could have brought myself to do that, but if someone successfully ran from battle, and I was the reason the soldier got away with it, I would go away for a very long time. My life, as a civilian, would be ruined.
But that’s why I never thought about joining a military, I suppose.
I’ve thought about joining the military in recent times, but Ireland’s armed forces are a joke, and I don’t think I’m allowed join Finland’s, even if we lived there. But both those forces are defensive (indeed, in Ireland’s case, not even that), not offensive.
I dig your point.
Well, actually, they are allowed to pick and choose, it just that “doing the right thing” (to me, “my” right thing) comes with extremely large consequences, such as execution or life in prison.
And to me that is where the true bravery lies, doing the right thing when you know you place your life in jeopardy, that is the true heart of a soldier.
But then again, my anaethma is “militaristic” thinking – a remnant of ignorant times, banal evil.
Right and wrong pertains to fully endowed human beings and citizens. Like I said over IM, its a circular, cagey system. Heh. However, one may exercise one’s inherent humanity, regardless of how one has been cast by the military, and decide what he or she can live with. As in, “can I stand to live with what this will turn me into.”
Unlawful orders. Indeed.
David
British (not Irish) ground forces have a reputation for being . . . hyper military, highly disciplined, and conservatie, unlike US ground forces. Okay, I mean the Army here, not the Marine Corpse.
David
Which is why I have compassion for the poor lost ignorant souls.
Oh I agree. But the magnitude for what Matt asks is difficult to convey. To participate in civil disobedience might even put one in the Galahad-department. There are not many who can. I’d like to think I could, but I truly don’t know. I would not know until faced with the choice.
Thanks for posting this, David. I was sort of aware of all of this. I’ve known a lot of people who have been in the military. I guess I was just dreaming, and being very, VERY idealistic.
While I respect your right to a differing opinion,I find it disappointing that you would say, “I don’t support the troops…” The men and women who serve in the military are the same soldiers who would fight and possibly die, to defend this country against oppressors and tyranny. That fact alone merits my support of each and every one of them…even if the current circumstances are considered less than noble.
There’s my 2 cents…in a nutshell.
We now continue with our regularly scheduled program.
Oh, good heavens, no! I didn’t take it any such way at all. I’m relieved that we have a forum in which we can state our opinions, and just because we have different ones about some things doesn’t mean we can’t get along. I was just very proud of myself for stating what I believe, because I’m usually the sort who will shut up in a majority for the sake of peace. Fear for myself. I don’t take risks much. And most of my LJ/TH friends are more liberal than I am, holding much more to your views than to mine. I could be wrong, you guys could be wrong, we could both be right… who knows?
And sorry it took me so long. I was worried you might think I was sulking, when I’m just perpetually behind on comments. Augh.
I guess I just don’t buy that the military defend us against opressors and tyranny. Seems to me like they are the tools of an oppressive tyrant, powerless to self-correct or have any checks-and-balances.
Now when the military surrounds the whitehouse and forces the administration to impeachment trials and I see all the the current Junta in prison.